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The Difference Between Lying and BSing

by: TwoPuttTommy

Thu May 13, 2010 at 06:08:09 AM CDT


According to Professor Harry G. Frankfurt, liars lie deliberately; BSers simply don't care. Professor Frankfurt wrote a book on this; it's called "On Bullsh*t." There's a great discussion of this going in a post entitled "On (CowPuckey)"  over at Barataria; Erik Hare starts out by asking:

Is it really a lie when the person making an outrageous statement doesn't actually care if it's the truth or not?

Simply not caring explains Michele Bachmann, a  Finalist for Politifact.com's 2009 Lie Of The Year.  In fact, Politifact.com has examined 9 - NINE - statements from Bacnmann, and found all - ALL - of them "False" (four of those claims were actually rated "Pants On Fire" - as in "Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire").

Bachmann still doesn't care; just last month, as noted here, Bachmann went on a Sunday TV show and said some (stuff) that prompted a Pat Kessler "Reality Check".  

As noted:  

And in Kessler's "Reality Check" - on Bachmann's outrageous fabrications concerning the economy - Kessler found Bachmann's claims, and I quote: "That's factually WRONG" and "This is FALSE" and "This starts with a kernel of truth, but is OUT OF CONTEXT" and "This is NOT TRUE." (emphasis NOT added) (MnProgressiveProject.com)

So, what did Bachmann do, after getting Reality Checked by Pat Kessler?  Went on stage at a GOPer rally with Sarah Palin, and repeated that same (stuff) Pat Kessler had found to be:  "WRONG", "FALSE", "OUT OF CONTEXT", and "NOT TRUE".

That's what BSers do, because they simply don't care if something is true or not - they only care that the listener (in Bachmann's case, "voter") thinks it's true.

Erik Hare will be joing The Big E and yours truly, the ol' TwoPutter, this Saturday (May 15th) as I Guest Host  "Radio Cafe with Cathy Hauser" from 2:00 to 3:00 pm on AM950 - KTNF. We'll be talking about Professor  Frankfurt's book ("On Bullsh*t"), Erik's post over at Barataria, this post (and any subsequent comments!), the media's role in propagating/covering BS, and how BS seems to be the modus operandi of today's Republican Party.  

There's a video interview of Professor Frankfurt discussing his book below the fold, plus an added bonus - a link to Jon Stewart interviewing Professor Frankfurt on "The Daily Show"!

Professor Frankfurt's Book, "On Bullsh*t", is available locally through Common Good Books in St. Paul; if you can't make it in to the shop, you can order on line and they'll ship.
 

TwoPuttTommy :: The Difference Between Lying and BSing
A little bit about Emeritus Professor Harry G. Frankfurt of Princeton University, from Wikipedia:

On Bullshit is an essay by philosopher  Harry Frankfurt. Originally published in the journal Raritan in 1986, the essay was republished as a separate volume in 2005 and became a nonfiction bestseller, spending twenty-seven weeks on the New York Times Best Seller list.[1]

In the essay, Frankfurt defines a theory of bullshit, defining the concept and analyzing its applications. In particular, Frankfurt distinguishes bullshitting from lying: while the liar deliberately makes false claims, the bullshitter is simply uninterested in the truth. Bullshitters aim primarily to impress and persuade their audiences. While liars need to know the truth to better conceal it, bullshitters, interested solely in advancing their own agendas, have no use for the truth. Thus, Frankfurt claims, "...bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are," (Frankfurt 61).

This work laid the foundation for Frankfurt's 2006 follow-up book, On Truth.

For a more entertaining, less scholarly interview of Professor Frankfurt, here's the link to The Daily Show's Jon Stewart!

The Daily Show - Professor Frankfurt

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Funeral to go to ... (0.00 / 0)
Tommy,

I'm seriously bummed.  A friend's husband committed suicide and the funeral is this Saturday afternoon ... so I can't join you.

Sigh ...


deepest sympathies, E (0.00 / 0)
...my flippant comments about the topic of Tommy's post were sent in before I saw your sad personal note.

[ Parent ]
totally disagree (0.00 / 0)
... if that's what Frankfurt says. He's entitled to his own opinion, not his own definitions, and he's not entitled to redefine the terms in order to sell his book or his thesis.

This is no joke, this "distinction between the different kinds of false information." The notion that a BS'r "really doesn't care" about the truth or falsity of his statements is not accurate; it's something that Frankfurt "just made up"--in other words, it's BS.

A liar is a person who intentionally makes deceptive presentations, statements or arguments, etc--knowing them to be false--in an attempt to deceive his audience. Thus, when you identify a person as "a liar," you are making a statement about his morals, his agenda, his character.

A BS'r, like a liar, may know that the story he is telling is false, that the argument he is making is nonsense--or he may not. He may be spouting false nonsense and not know it. Or he may know his story is untrue and also care very much whether his listener accepts his BS as the truth-In other words, a BS'r may be a liar or not at the very same time that he is BS'ing.

"BS" refers to the quality of the information the BS'r is presenting. A BS'r is someone presenting such presenting such information. Pointing out that someone is a BS'r doesn not necessarily say anything about his character or agenda.

To put it another way: "all lies are BS, and all BS is lies/false statements the speaker is trying to pass off as true"--but "Not all BS'rs are liars. They may be morons, the fact that they spout BS doesn't mean they are intending to deceive."

A person presenting BS may have a hidden agenda and may know he's lying--but he may not, he may just be an idiot repeating nonsense or he may be a goofball "just making it up."

The liar always has the intent to deceive, the BS'r may or may not--he may actually believe the BS he is presenting to you.

Both types are untrustworthy. A person may be both; a liar on some issue and a BS'r on others--I'd list Bachmann as a member of both categories, in light of the definitions I set out above.

But the distinction is very important. A person who designs statements to deceive others (or repeats the same in the hope of deceiving others), is very dangerous and malicious--far more so than the sub-species of BS'r who is not intending to deceive, but talks BS recklessly.

When someone says to you "That's BS!" he is saying (in the words of a gentler era) "that's nonsense." That is not the same as calling the speaker "a liar," though both statements cast aspersions on the speaker's judgment.

So Frankfurt's full of s**t.


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